tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post115582538202621231..comments2023-10-31T11:37:50.028-04:00Comments on on life & other inconveniences: How Old Do You Have To Be To Be A Criminal?Sandra Ruttanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06109584805469336742noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155913693293727622006-08-18T11:08:00.000-04:002006-08-18T11:08:00.000-04:00Sela, you're very sweet, but I know a lot of peopl...Sela, you're very sweet, but I know a lot of people who had it far worse than me and it has given me a lot to write about. So, it's not so bad!Sandra Ruttanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109584805469336742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155904068385978332006-08-18T08:27:00.000-04:002006-08-18T08:27:00.000-04:00I'm so sad now. I think, if I'd had your experienc...I'm so sad now. I think, if I'd had your experiences, I'd have come down firmly on the side of not having children, too.<BR/><BR/>I also think that very often people who had good childhoods and didn't have to deal with a lot of trauma are only too happy to be blissfully ignorant. Because it hurts to think about it.Sela Carsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18410188636252030577noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155852932827354752006-08-17T18:15:00.000-04:002006-08-17T18:15:00.000-04:00Good question Christa, but I don't think our resto...Good question Christa, but I don't think our restorative justice system is that good. There may be specific programs working in some places, but much of it seems to be handled regionally. The child who beat me with a wooden board at the age of 5? A psychological evaluation demonstrated oppositional defiance disorder and conduct disorder present, but they wouldn't permit a diagnosis because it was unfair to a five-year-old to have that stigma. He beat another staff as well, I have video of him beating on people, and he was later involved in an incident with animals, not to mention physically assaulting other children.<BR/><BR/>The decision about his status was left to his mother and we were told that we had no recourse or approved disciplinary action with him. Which meant if we intervened as staff, we could face charges.<BR/><BR/>I quit. So did several others.<BR/><BR/>I've also worked with kids who were autistic but the parents refused to allow the formal diagnosis to go on the record because they didn't want their child 'labeled'. So it's hard to say if it's just about 'conduct disorder kids in training, because this only comes to light with kids have actually come in contact with the police - it isn't even something teachers/social workers intervene on at an earlier age. There are a few kids I worked with years ago who've gotten in trouble with the law, but there's no carry over from what we knew about them then to what's going on with them now. This is the gap. If you ask me, teachers should be able to notify social services and alert them to children who need monitoring without fear of repercussions and there should be adequate support to get the monitoring without necessarily removing kids - it depends on what's going on.<BR/><BR/>For me, a guidance counselor saw that I got put into the system. She made sure it happened. Without her intervention, I wouldn't even want to guess where I'd be now, and that wasn't even about breaking the law. But in the end, I might have broken the law just to get out - who knows? My mother was a juvenile offender and was incarcerated as a teenager. In her case, I venture to say the sad thing is that nobody intervened sooner, because my grandmother had suffered brain damage, became a parent through being raped by her brother, and it was an incredibly unstable home environment. My mother and both of her sisters got themselves arrested and ultimately pregnant to get out, at very young ages.<BR/><BR/>We need intervention across the board, I think. As to these sociopaths in the making, little is being done to deal with them. In BC when they shut down one 'facility' that treated all sorts of mental disorders, they just unleashed the patients on the public - the put them out on the street, unable to function. The resulting rise in crime was staggering. Look at our prisons - not enough room, just pick those who are a bit less bad and release them. This is how we had a known pedophile recently abduct TWO boys.<BR/><BR/>It's insane. The justic system is a joke.Sandra Ruttanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109584805469336742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155851663815795972006-08-17T17:54:00.000-04:002006-08-17T17:54:00.000-04:00Doesn't Canada have a pretty decent restorative ju...Doesn't Canada have a pretty decent restorative justice system in place? Or does that only address first-time juvenile offenders, not repeats?<BR/><BR/>Given that restorative justice is aimed at kids who still have consciences, or just need help developing them, I'm guessing it's for the former group. So at that point, we're talking about kids with "conduct disorders" - socio/psychopaths in training, yes?Christa M. Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14384508556022159789noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155841094436570922006-08-17T14:58:00.000-04:002006-08-17T14:58:00.000-04:00Ah, well, this is Canada. Clean slate at 18. The...Ah, well, this is Canada. Clean slate at 18. These kids get every break imaginable and it clearly isn't enough for people like Ms. Finlay.Sandra Ruttanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109584805469336742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155840789520342242006-08-17T14:53:00.000-04:002006-08-17T14:53:00.000-04:00"Kevin, one thing people seem to be missing here i..."Kevin, one thing people seem to be missing here is that juvenile records are expunged, for one thing. It isn't like the kids become criminals with a label for the rest of their lives."<BR/><BR/>Not true in the state of Arizona. If a kid gets popped for just about anything, including runaway, it's on their record for good.angiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751466673491487048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155839568539948702006-08-17T14:32:00.000-04:002006-08-17T14:32:00.000-04:00Stephen, Angie, Andrea...You all make great, compe...Stephen, Angie, Andrea...<BR/><BR/>You all make great, compelling points. I feel so frustrated when this topic comes up, because it feels hopeless. Certainly Angie can understand that from her experience. We don't do anything preventative, and as Andrea has so aptly pointed out, it isn't that the government lacks money, it's that it throws it away.<BR/><BR/>Kevin, one thing people seem to be missing here is that juvenile records are expunged, for one thing. It isn't like the kids become criminals with a label for the rest of their lives. But without court orders and a legal process for intervention, you can't 'make' someone get counseling, or have them monitored.<BR/><BR/>Which means you just cut them loose and send them back to whatever environment has contributed to getting them to this point.<BR/><BR/>The police and social workers need a mechanism in order to intervene. If that means creating a new branch of the justice system, so be it. But there actually do have to be laws and there is a legal process to follow to deal with this stuff.<BR/><BR/>People blame teachers for doing something, when, as I remarked in the comments above, I've been involved in removals where the process was so slow, the parent fled jurisdiction. Then you can't do anything, and is the kid any better off? Nope. If anything, we probably put the nail in his coffin because he had nobody when she moved him.<BR/><BR/>I won't even discuss the other removals I did, for kids being raped in the home. And by other kids.<BR/><BR/>But let's just send them back there and give them hugs and hope it gets better.Sandra Ruttanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109584805469336742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155838604114487822006-08-17T14:16:00.000-04:002006-08-17T14:16:00.000-04:00Children need consequeces for their actions. A lo...Children need consequeces for their actions. A lot don't get any. <BR/><BR/>I think the courts should intervene especially for repeat offenders. I mean really it's a pattern and obviously the parents can't or won't do anything about it. Maybe they need a three strikes program for kids. Three times in the system and the court intervenes in some way to help the child. More major crimes could be one strike and the court intervenes and requires couseling, home visits, whatever to help the child not become a hardened criminal. <BR/><BR/>Personally I think any child who physically bullies another child should be expelled...end of story. It's not fair to the person being bullied to have to go to school with that child. Then the school system/parents should require couseling for said bully. Now for verbal bullying they shouldn't be expelled but they should get couseling. <BR/><BR/>Really what it comes down to is priorities and our government's priorities are all screwed up. They keep screaming terror alert terror alert and throwing more money to fight terrorism. Meanwhile our children are losing out. They don't provide enough money for education, they don't provide enough money to help the children who so desparately need someone to intervene in their lives before it's too late. It's a sad world we live in when fighting wars, killing terrorists take priority over our children. I'm not saying we shouldn't protect ourselves from terrorists but our children should be top priority. And the government is famouse for throwing money away on pork barrel projects. What pork barrel projects you ask? How about these:<BR/><BR/> $107,000 to study the sex life of the Japanese quail.<BR/> $1.2 million to study the breeding habits of the woodchuck.<BR/> $150,000 to study the Hatfield-McCoy feud.<BR/> $84,000 to find out why people fall in love.<BR/> $1 million to study why people don't ride bikes to work.<BR/> $19 million to examine gas emissions from cow flatulence.<BR/> $144,000 to see if pigeons follow human economic laws.<BR/> Funds to study the cause of rudeness on tennis courts and examine smiling patterns in bowling alleys.<BR/> $219,000 to teach college students how to watch television.<BR/> $2 million to construct an ancient Hawaiian canoe.<BR/> $20 million for a demonstration project to build wooden bridges.<BR/> $160,000 to study if you can hex an opponent by drawing an X on his chest.<BR/> $800,000 for a restroom on Mt. McKinley.<BR/> $100,000 to study how to avoid falling spacecraft.<BR/> $16,000 to study the operation of the komungo, a Korean stringed instrument.<BR/> $1 million to preserve a sewer in Trenton, NJ, as a historic monument.<BR/> $6,000 for a document on Worcestershire sauce.<BR/> $10,000 to study the effect of naval communications on a bull's potency.<BR/> $100,000 to research soybean-based ink.<BR/> $1 million for a Seafood Consumer Center.<BR/> $57,000 spent by the Executive Branch for gold-embossed playing cards on Air Force Two.<BR/>Total: $ 45,980,000 <BR/><BR/>I mean really, give me a break. Ok now i'll go back into my corner. Phew!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07592231080156766441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155838043295594702006-08-17T14:07:00.000-04:002006-08-17T14:07:00.000-04:00Dammit, I hate this topic. But here's my response...Dammit, I hate this topic. But here's my response to Stephen's point about a lack of a comprehensive plan. Yes, part of it is the low interest in preventative measures. The bigger problem is that there are almost no transitional services for kids moving from juvie jail, juvie prison, lock-down residential treatment etc. back into the community (foster care, independent living, family reunification). <BR/><BR/>I've seen it happen over and over and over again. Kids finally have a chance to learn about stuff like responsibility, problem solving skills, anger management, emotion regulation, consequences, etc., in a highly structured environment and then they get thrown right back into the same shitty, chaotic situation that bred the problems to begin with. I swear I felt like I was working triage in a war zone. As soon as we get a kid patched up, we'd send her back to the front lines. And people wonder why the programs don't work. Many of them work just fine, but the follow-through transitional support is either non-existent or sucks hairy donkey butt. Go figure.angiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01751466673491487048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155837854325136112006-08-17T14:04:00.000-04:002006-08-17T14:04:00.000-04:00Well, anyone of any age can be a criminal, which i...Well, anyone of any age can be a criminal, which is a different argument to children being brought into the criminal justice system.Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640770705948611352noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155837233915448112006-08-17T13:53:00.000-04:002006-08-17T13:53:00.000-04:00We have an outrageous gang problem down here in L....We have an outrageous gang problem down here in L.A. It's gotten to the point that when a shooting is reported it's remakable when it's not gang related. And we have a lot of shootings.<BR/><BR/>Most of the solution sthat are proposed and implemented are, of course, punitive, rather than preventive. That's because punitive is easier than preventive.<BR/><BR/>Preventive requires dealing with kids one on one. It means putting programs in place to help the economy and education so that these kids have a different option than getting jumped into a gang. It means helping out parents with their children and holding them accountable for them. It means increasing security and police in areas torn up by gangs so that there's a chance that these programs might actually work.<BR/><BR/>The whole thing's like a goddamn Rubik's cube and nobody seems to be able to get all the sides to match up.<BR/><BR/>Things are so bad that the LA Unified School District doesn't even know what it's drop-out rate is. Because it doesn't know how many students it has. Or which schools they're in. Kids don't just fall through the cracks down here, they plummet into the the sinkholes.<BR/><BR/>But without putting preventive measures in place to deal with the problem and not just the symptoms you get kids locked up and at some point released as hardened criminals with an education in violence.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, that's really solving the problem.Stephen Blackmoorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01241134280141088631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155832996460609862006-08-17T12:43:00.000-04:002006-08-17T12:43:00.000-04:00SW, you've reminded me of some of the home removal...SW, you've reminded me of some of the home removals I was involved with when I worked in conjunction with a public school. Devastating. In one case, abandonment and abuse were part of the equation. I participated in supporting the motion to seek intervention for this child after getting a frantic phonecall from them, because their mother hadn't come home and they were locked out on their own. It was the final straw - completely unprotected, I drove there, picked up the child and assumed responsibility for him.<BR/><BR/>When the first home visit happened after reporting (first step in the process) the mother packed up and moved to another district, out of their jurisdiction. And all that happened was that child lost the only security he had to that point.<BR/><BR/>Breaks my heart. And people wonder why the teachers and social workers burn out and quit.Sandra Ruttanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06109584805469336742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18499463.post-1155831514401688092006-08-17T12:18:00.000-04:002006-08-17T12:18:00.000-04:00This is such a tough subject. You're absolutely ri...This is such a tough subject. You're absolutely right that the innocent are the ones who get punished.<BR/><BR/>Kids need someone to guide them, and a lot of parents today either cannot or will not give them what they need. But our laws restricting the interference of other adults with "family life" have reached the ridiculous point. The sacristy of the home life shall not be violated, even if the home life is a horror show for the child.<BR/><BR/>It takes a LOT to allow a teacher or social worker to legally intervene. Too much. The legal system is in such shambles now that teachers are afraid to hug their students out of fear of being slapped with a lawsuit. Everyone's hands are tied, and the kids slip through the cracks unnoticed until they show up at school with a shotgun.<BR/><BR/>And the general public stands around scratching their heads and wondering what happened.s.w. vaughnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09102544611773720262noreply@blogger.com